Priten: Welcome to Margin of Thought, where we make space for the questions that matter.
I'm your host, Priten, and together we'll explore questions that help us preserve what matters while navigating what's coming.
Today I'm speaking with Kim Cowperthwaite, an English language arts teacher who spent years watching her student's relationship with writing evolve alongside technology.
Kim isn't afriad of AI in the classroom.
In fact, she's enthusiastic about it, but her enthusiasm comes with intentionality.
She's grappling with the question many educators face.
How do we balance embracing technology's potential to enhance creative expression and protecting the foundational skills that make that learning possible?
Let's get started.
Kim: Uh, My name is Kim Coppery.
I'm an English Language Arts teacher at Freeport Middle School in Freeport, Maine.
I've always taught language arts at the middle school level.
I, before this worked in the news industry just a little bit and, I was gonna go out to Hollywood and make films that didn't happen.
But love, love working with crazy adolescent kids.
And I'm a reader, writer myself and so just love what I do and I'm just, you know, when AI started coming on the picture as far as its implications and education, I just got so excited and then was not met with the same enthusiasm with and colleagues.
So I've had to back up and ease into it.
Yeah.
Priten: I'd love to hear more about that.
That's actually exactly how I've described my reaction, I saw this stuff come out and I was very excited.
I and then we started talking to teachers and everybody was scared and frustrated and angry, and I was like, oh, I had the wrong emotional reaction.
apparently.
Before we talk about ai I'd love to just start with like your earliest memory as a student of using technology in an educational context.
What is that memory for you?
Kim: Yeah, I don't know.
I grew up in a, high tech home for the 1970s.
You know, we was, we had recorders and my dad was very into technology and I was always very excited by recording things with my video camera and my little Panasonic tape recorder.
And my Walkman was like, wow, the world.
'cause I could listen to music with somebody else.
We had, I had the dual model, we could plug both our headphones in.
And I was in a small Catholic school that had no technology and I left there and transferred to our middle school, which was brand new, high tech, open classroom.
It had a TV studio, it had micro.
Fish and all that technology to look at stuff and I was just really excited by that.
So I think my earliest memories were just looking at going into the room and going through that microfiche and going through on, on camera or on the, on the screen.
about college level is when the early.
PCs started coming in the, the desktops.
And when I was in college, I also worked at our local newspaper in Portland.
I had moved from Connecticut to Maine and had probably one of the earliest forms of this idea of the internet because we had the associated press lines coming in from all around the world.
And my job in college was to sift through that and uh, look for the salient stories coming across the wire.
And then I do remember.
In the mid 1980s, late 1980s, sitting in a news meeting talking about this thing that was coming, that digital online reading newspaper industry would go under.
And here I am sitting in this mega building with a printing press and an underground tunnel in the physical composing room.
They were still hand composing and digital composing thinking.
Oh wow.
That's really exciting.
And since then the industry has just collapsed.
I feel very grateful that I was on the, the, um, tail end to see that industry.
Priten: um, I'm interested to hear a little bit about what that's looked like for you in the last few years when another big change has happened.
again, Before we get to the present day your earliest teaching memories of when you tried a new tech tool in your classroom, either um, on your own or because you were told that it was, you had to
Kim: the district I was in, or actually all of Maine, we were the first one-to-one state, and um, so I've never taught without.
My kids having one-to-one laptops.
So my earliest memories were the giant white apple computers that were really heavy and that hit the ground and the screen would break and they'd fly around the room like a pizza and the top would come off.
And but it was just really, really exciting.
And what I noticed is that reluctant writers were more excited about writing um, using a document to write on to type.
I know we're going in the future, but what I've noticed is that buy-in to write has changed significantly with the incredible amount of distractions now on those laptops.
But at first, the quality that just, it elevated the, the level of writing rapidly.
And that was in 2004 when I first started teaching with it.
Priten: um, And we can continue that, that line of thought when you talked about like the quality improving the student engagement with writing, improving um, with the device introduction when do you see that wane?
Um, Away?
Did you consistently see improvement for a while, or did it start deteriorating rapidly?
Or has it deteriorated at all?
Yeah.
Kim: consistently seeing improving until kind of Google came on the scene and then, holding kids' engagement while they're in a classroom and they can drift off anywhere they want, all over the world.
So that's been a bit, harder.
I started to see the kind of the loss of engagement a little bit.
You know, We always use COVID as that point, but a little bit before COVID.
And then I saw kind of like a little bump up in engagement when I was online teaching, when we were all in lockdown, and then it's drifted right off again.
Priten: What does it look like post COVID?
Pre ai?
I don't know.
There's a really small snippet of time we had between those two.
Um, But I'm curious what that looked like um, in terms of both student engagement, but also quality of their work.
Kim: well, My students or the students in Freeport are just leaning into AI and they're not skillfully using it yet.
It hasn't been widespread introduced around the building.
I'm probably.
One of the few that's been talking about it, I see the sideways looks like, oh, she knows kind of stuff.
Like Yeah, I know when you use it.
And so we're just kind of in that early early phase of it.
And the engagement as far as access to it is.
Just amateur.
Big, unknown, uncertain.
What are the procedures for using it?
What aren't?
My older brother told me about it.
Should I sneak around?
Oh, I'm gonna get in trouble, so I won't that.
That's where we are now.
Priten: tell me a little bit about those explicit conversations because especially if you're one of the educators talking about it directly with the students.
There is this like hush ness to the AI usage in most schools, especially in middle school.
I think that it's like starts to get a little bit more open, I think, as they get older.
What is their initial reaction beyond, oh, she knows because that, that, that sounds right to me, but I'm assuming there's other uh, components.
Yeah.
Kim: I picked up on that about, just a year ago.
So this year when my new class came in, it just became a big part of our community.
You know what, I share everything I've learned about ai, ai, the conferences I've been to, when I get back from one, I spend a day, we share out, we play with it.
you know, I just talk about.
How do I know when you're using it?
And I tell them, this is how I know.
And then we talk about when is it appropriate to use and, and when is it a great tool to use?
And I'm always really positive about it as, as well as building them up as human beings and intelligent, fabulous writers
Priten: and are there receptives to that?
So tell me a little bit about what that means for like when they're making the decision to use AI or not like those conversations?
How do you see those spill over?
like, Do you require them to tell you when they're using ai?
Um, Are they open about it?
Do you still get instances where you feel like they've used AI inappropriately?
Those kinds of scenarios they love to hear more about?
Kim: Yeah, we're just dipping into using it in the classroom and that's just, you know, right out there, I'm telling them, here's what we're doing.
Let's play around with it, or let's use it for research and let's compare our results.
Let's see what we're finding.
Let's work in a group.
What are you finding?
What are you finding?
And then re report out on it.
I've had a couple instances where they're not in the classroom with me.
They're doing something on their own.
It's usually last minute and late, and it comes in and it's all, it was written by ai.
So then I had to make a decision, how am I going to approach this?
'cause I have no guidelines to do so.
so I just made a decision of.
Just telling the student, you used ai.
Here's how I know, here's your regular writing, blah, blah, blah.
You know, Here's the sentence length, here's the sentence, structure.
What did, and then I just say they think they're getting in trouble.
And I say, what did you think of what AI wrote?
And they start telling me, and then I say, what was your intention?
And then I have them redo it.
What did you learn from this?
What can you mine from it and put into your own piece and then we move forward.
I don't call a home.
It's not punitive.
I just keep moving.
So far that's worked.
I think, I don't know, I don't know what September will bring.
Priten: right.
No, but that, see, that's reassuring to me is that the students are receptive to those conversations.
And that you find success in being able to reorient that conversation from being this like, oh, like we have all these tools to catch you, and I'm gonna like, look at your history of every keystroke.
You talked about making them understand the value of their own writing.
How receptive are they to those conversations and how do you frame them um, when they can, you know, use chat GPT to write something at least?
Kim: Yeah.
Um, I do a lot of, I still do writing by hand in journals.
Let's go different spots in the room.
Let's go outside.
Let's write a little bit, let's generate our ideas, and then which idea do you feel passionate about?
Let's come back.
Let's do a little writing on a document.
Let.
And sharing.
Let's look at what we've created.
And then I kind of individually go around and meet with 'em.
A student who's having trouble with sentence composition, I might say, let's pull out these fabulous ideas.
And now.
I'd like you to use some AI and let's see if you can get some structure that's traditional in here.
'cause you're writing a non-traditional structure and you can't get your point across.
It's been a lifesaver for students with disabilities that are brilliant, but they just don't have the structure to, to write.
So.
And then I say, I, you know, then they read it again.
Do you like it?
Do you wanna change something?
Just always teaching that critical lens that you, it is coming from you.
You're just using this for support.
Priten: Can you tell me a little bit about your classroom?
Like how many classes are you teaching?
What is the class size?
I'm just curious to know, like This approach feels very hands-on.
And I think for some folks it's daunting if they haven't tried it.
So I'd love to just provide some context to other folks about uh, exactly what context you're teaching in.
Kim: Yeah, I have a, any, in any given year, I have between 80 and a hundred and a hundred students, and I teach four sections per day in each section.
There's about 20 to 22 students in there.
Um, I've always taught in a workshop model know, it's a mini lesson.
Here's our task.
Then students break off either into small groups or individually, and I'm circulating.
Supporting them.
And then we come back and report back in, you know, our progress, how are we doing?
And then we go on, they go onto their next class.
So, It lends itself really well to um, you know, individualizing and personalizing what they're doing.
Priten: right, and that's, That's a similar context to, you know, the average of American high school or middle school rather.
So that, that's, again, very reassuring.
we hear some pushback from folks about the value of like still forcing students to write by hand um, versus like using, typing everything or even
like, pushback against, why are, why are they having to learn these skills when they could just talk to their AI and have it write something for them?
So Have you had those conversations with parents in particular is and then also like how do you view the role of what you're teaching in the future?
Kim: Yeah.
Well, So parents are real.
Have been concerned about their students' handwriting and spelling more than ever.
'cause I've seen such a deterioration in that.
I put out a memo or an email to kids, to parents about their kids and said, do you want more instruction in this?
they said, yes.
It's not part of my curriculum in middle school.
So I sent home some practice stuff for kids to do.
I sent home about 60 of them.
Not one.
Not one came back, so nothing was being done at home.
So I mostly have the conversations with the students.
I haven't had pushback about handwriting even.
It seems like they want more traditional return to that and less screen time because their students, their kids are having so much screen time at home.
Priten: It does seem like parents in different areas have different responses.
We've heard some parents who are in the same boat who are very excited to like advocate for the importance of writing and the importance of handwriting in particular.
But also just like the struggle of the writing process, even, especially at higher levels.
and then we have parents who are pushing back against some curricular decisions based on.
Why is my kids still learning this?
Why are they not like using the, the tools they'll use in their future careers?
And it's always interesting to hear what different contexts parents have in terms of thinking about the role of their kids' classrooms.
Now you talked about experimenting with a lot of AI tools.
Um, It sounds like you're one of few who are doing so in your you know, in your school.
What makes you feel compelled to try these AI tools?
What is exciting about them?
Kim: Yeah.
I haven't used a lot of out there kinds of things.
I'm not all that, I'm not all that interested in teaching the technology of it.
'cause I see it come and go.
What I'm interested in, in is teaching students how to make choices about which technology they're going to use based on what they've sketched out or drawn or written in their journals by hand.
And what's your goal here?
So oftentimes they've discovered the tools that they wanna use.
On their own.
But what compelled me is that this is just such a natural extension of teaching, reading, and writing and communication and creation.
Just a natural human extension to me.
I never looked at it as anything artificial.
And I just, I felt like it's an obligation to bring students into this new medium.
And also provide them the support and the structure, which I've felt like I've had to invent a little bit as I've gone along.
Yeah.
Priten: And I think that the pace of development is so fast.
I'm sure that looks different even, a year ago versus what you're thinking about for the fall.
Obviously the responsible usage of the tools is a huge part of your you know, how you approach it with your students.
Do you use the tools yourself um, and how you communicate that to your students
Kim: Yeah, well, I might tell them how I compose an, an email to parents.
I'll definitely show them.
I said, Hey, here's what we needed to learn in this lesson.
Here's some stuff I've taught in the past and I, put it into chat, GPT or I've gone online and found some other lesson resources and I've shown them what it gave me and what I've changed.
Middle school kids love to find errors in things, so I, sometimes will physically print a couple pages and say, here's our goal.
Help me go through this.
What do you think?
And they'll they'll find errors in there, especially for doing something like an author study.
And we've studied a little bit about the author's life, and they'll be like, wait a minute, this isn't correct.
And I'm like, I, oh, I left it in there.
I,
Priten: yeah,
It's nice to capitalize on that.
Know it all energy, I think that um, students have, especially when they can channel it in um, this productive way.
Now when you decide to use an AI tool a particular AI tool what does that look like?
Is it a decision that you make independently?
Do you have to go through an IT department?
Do you have to tell your parents about it?
What is the landscape of that?
Kim: I just use it.
to me it's like asking permission to use a book or a pencil.
I mean, It's just a tool.
you know, And I haven't ever gone all out.
We're just using technology.
It's always a book.
And in a process.
And I'm very lucky to just be able to make decisions in our school on, what works best.
So yeah, I haven't had, not in my school
Priten: Yeah.
so you've been able to kind of make the decision based on what's right for your classroom.
Um, And now shifting a little bit to thinking about like, how students are engaging with the technology.
And this can be broader than just ai.
You mentioned concerns about keeping them engaged when they can get distracted and use, you know, just Google whatever else or go up on a, while use Chase on the
internet what do you do to ensure that , when you're using the technology it's productive and that the students are staying engaged with the actual classroom material?
Kim: Paper checklists by their side, paper by their side to refer back and forth.
And I talk about just the human brain, the process, needing that paper.
By your side, you've made your plans.
Now you have your technology by your side.
So we're back and forth.
Also circulating a lot, stopping the class a lot for check-ins has helped most of the students students who have difficulty with impulse control, uh.
for a variety of reasons are the ones you know, it's probably about 10% that it's an addiction.
It's, and I've talked to them about that.
I said, your brain, as soon as you take a pause and you're thinking your brain's gonna wanna just go right out and start gaming, and you have to be aware of that.
Get it off your tab, close your tab so you don't go there and make a plan when you're gonna go back there.
So I'm just always talking to them like that.
I think it helps.
It's not a hundred percent, you know, I'll yell across the room, I see your eyeballs shifting back and forth.
You're gaming, and they go, yeah, I am.
And, And I just say, catch yourself.
You're gonna have to deal with this your whole life.
Priten: And it's, it's also helping them build the right habits, right?
And like you say, like it's, it is something that's gonna follow the outside of the classroom.
And so even if you can like punitively enforce it in, in your classroom it's much better that they can also go home and decide when to game and not game and uh, make those decisions.
It sounds like at every stage you do have a very it is a much more flexible let's talk about this and let's talk about why we're doing this um, approach to it.
And I think that it's good to hear that it's, it's working especially with the middle school audience
Kim: One of my jobs has also been as a strategist, as a teaching coach I did for a couple years.
So one of the things is really um, getting.
Teachers off the idea that it's not about the technology, it's about building community and relationships in your classroom.
Once you get that, then you can kind of go into this technology and it's less scary that you're teaching students about your self-control and their self-control using it.
Priten: And on that note like, you obviously have thought about this a lot, learned about the technology and what's available.
Where does that happen?
Are these formal PD sessions, are you on the internet?
Are you learning from the students?
I'm just kind of curious about, Where you gain your knowledge about the tech.
Kim: I think I first started with your organization is I first, over the summer of, I think it was 2022, I saw a couple things come out that I took over the summer.
And then at August I got ahold of my principal.
I said, we're already a year behind.
We gotta move.
I got some money and Nina did a, a workshop for our staff.
It was offered to our staff and we received a bunch of slots.
Teachers were also given the option of working in the room instead, so I ended up having just like eight or 10 come, but that was kind of one of my first sessions.
I attended a all day workshop with the main principals association with Jethro Jones, so I ended up there and it was one of my best experiences.
Um, he, he was fabulous.
Um, I did an all day session with Trevor.
Ale he was really good.
So yeah, just picking up here and there.
I read your book.
really.
Priten: It sounds like it's largely on your own.
Do you hear from your peers that they're struggling with these you know, the developments in the tech,
Kim: only that I got a paper turned in the other day and it was all written by ai.
You know, And not a lot of movement beyond that.
The first year when I was going around Hey, let's all take these workshops, I got like a deer in the headlight.
Wait, what kind of look now it's evolved into we have to have, you know, rules in place now and they're cheating and I just feel like this is a stage that they, that we need to go through as school systems first to get to the other side.
Which, which makes sense.
We can't go forward if we don't have procedures in place, but I think we need a lot more pd.
Priten: when it comes to that pd, what is, what does the ideal um, look like for you?
Because there's obviously a whole spectrum.
There's um, you know, let's talk about what an algorithm is and talk about the data science behind it.
There's, here's this very specific tool and how do you use this tool what parts of that feel appealing or right to you when you think about what your colleagues need or even what you need?
Kim: I think what my colleagues le need, especially older teachers, they want hands-on.
Gimme something that I can use right now.
Which doesn't hold up without a little theory.
So it's kinda like light theory, hands-on, light theory, hands-on kind of approach.
But definitely I think I learned from Jethro actually, that I translated to my classroom is, what is your goal?
What do you wanna achieve?
Map that, that out carefully.
Get it straight in your mind and then go out and find the AI tools on your own and what did you find?
And that has, I think when teachers have that opportunity, you start hearing them getting excited.
We did a little bit of that in one of our workshops because it became personal to them.
I think starting with how can you use AI for managing yourself, your profession and communication is the first step.
Priten: when you think about the next like five years what are you most excited about with the technology?
Kim: I,
I think what excites me the most is kind of leading students into knowing themselves as individuals.
Understanding themselves as being part of humanity in a whole global community.
And then how do they express themselves as individuals and figure that out first.
EI don't if it's crayons and markers on paper, whatever it is.
And then how do we use these tools to make the most in mind blowing videos, podcasts, whatever it is that their creativity can imagine.
and I want, I want them to have themselves in it.
and I, I can see that coming over the next five years.
Priten: yeah, That seems like that it, that does seem like the ideal is like helping students express themselves better um, rather than squashing their ability to express what do you, what are you most concerned about?
Kim: I am most concerned about students not seeing themselves as experts and learners and just taking what comes at them passively from anything online.
Anything on line and AI and just passively taking it and not putting themselves into it.
So I think almost as we go forward in technology, we almost need to pour a lot more effort into those soft human skills or so we don't lose them.
Priten: yeah.
Thank you very much.
This is, this is very, very helpful.
Kim: Thanks again for I enjoyed talking with you and best of luck with this new
Priten: Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
How to teach.
Writing in the age of AI.
is one of the most difficult questions, and Kim pushes us not to take sides and focus on teaching students to think critically about when and how to use AI.
Her focus on student agency creative expression and cultivating soft skills reminds us that technology should amplify learning, not replace it.
Stay with us this season as we continue exploring how educators are navigating these difficult questions, and for more on how to approach these difficult questions, pre-order my upcoming book Ethical Ed [email protected].
Thanks for listening to Margin of Thought.
If this episode gave you something to think about, subscribe, rate, and review us.
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Until next time, keep making space for the questions that matter.