Priten: Welcome to Margin of Thought, where we make space for the questions that matter.
I'm your host, Priten, and together we'll explore questions that help us preserve what matters while navigating what's coming.
Today I'm speaking with Shon Holland, a middle school science teacher.
Shon's journey from Hazardous Waste Management to education gives him a unique perspective on risk, responsibility, and what it means to trust students with powerful tools.
This conversation explores the constant titration required of teachers balancing freedom and discipline, trust and surveillance, the need for connection and the reality that parents called are in class.
Let's get started
Shon: uh, Shon Holland, I teach at Sells Middle school in Dublin, Ohio.
Um, second career I worked for an environmental company, um, an incineration company of hazardous waste for about eight to 10 years.
And, uh, ended up.
At OSU working with their environmental health and safety and eventually became, a state employee, I decided to make the jump and work for OSU and that kind of coincided with my, my newfound passion of education.
So I went over to the public sector basically because I could get my extra teaching classes in.
While still working.
the job that I had previously travel was part of it.
And, you know, it, it, we weren't quite to the point where we had online classes of that magnitude.
That was about 20 years ago.
and then right out of, my student teaching, I was at Scioto High School.
I just, I had enough of the, uh, admin and central office come in and observe and, you know, lucky enough to score an interview, and I got placed in middle school.
Um, all of my teaching experience, as a student teacher was at the high school level, and I was a little apprehensive, but, uh, I've taught seventh grade, eighth grade, did some bio, some physical science, and, uh, I have to say.
7th and 8th grade are probably, where I belong.
Priten: Yeah, middle school, I find is the, is my favorite population to work with in any context.
Um, in general, they're the right level of excited still about the world, um, and not yet as jaded as high school students, but like you can still have
real conversations with them, um, and you're not like you can talk to them like, you know, send me adults at least by that point, which is, which is nice.
So, yeah, I, I've thought about that question a lot is if I like went to the classroom, um, I think it, it, that's the right age group, um, I think to have a lot of fun.
before we talk about you as a teacher, I'd love to hear about you as a student, and whether you remember like your earliest memory of technology being used, um, in a classroom that you were in, um, or the strongest reaction you to technology as a student,
Shon: I can remember I went to a very, very small school, out in the country, uh, Walbridge, Ohio.
I think I had 18 people in my class tops.
and that was all the way through eighth grade.
But I can remember about fourth grade, they brought us into this, they called it the computer lab, and there were about six.
Monochrome monitors.
I believe they were IBMs at the time and they taught us basic.
And I was like, what is this?
You can make pictures move, but it's typing.
I mean, just code.
And it was the biggest update was when you could change it from gray to green to orange font and you know, it's kind of like, oh, there's these things called computers.
Okay.
And then.
I look at high school we kind of dabbled in it, but it wasn't much.
And then when I was in college, I remember my roommate coming back going, you've gotta get an email address.
And I'm like, uh, what?
And after that, it's kind of like AI today, it's like an email address and the next thing you know, if you don't have one.
you're light years behind everyone else because, employers aren't calling you.
They're sending out emails, you are attaching the emails, and it just exponentially grew from there as far as you know, possibilities.
Priten: yeah, that's one that I, uh, no one has shared yet.
what is a transition from No emails to emails, but that that is a, that's a pivotal moment for like every industry, right?
Like across, the board?
Shon: Well, it, I mean, I believe it truly removed, borders to an extent where you can communicate with someone.
Almost instantaneously, you know?
Priten: Yeah.
Shon: At the time it probably took a few seconds to get from New York to California or whatever, but I mean, you, you didn't have to pick up a phone anymore.
And Yeah.
I mean, it just, it was crazy.
And then, you know, you have AOL and, and all of that coming on board.
Yeah.
I think that's when people went, holy smokes.
like what is this going to turn into?
Priten: Um, that makes complete sense.
when you think about what it has turned into, we're jumping now, um, to like modern day, how do you feel about the, the current transition?
You alluded to the, the AI transition.
do you think it's, it is similar or do you think there's some differences?
Shon: I think it's similar in the way that it's removed, boundaries or, or obstacles.
I definitely see the potential for misuse.
I'm in middle school, a middle school student can misuse a ruler, a pencil, a desk, a chair.
just another, you know, object for them to play with or, or misuse.
But I think that's the part that I actually enjoy as a teacher is saying, here's this tool and I know we can all find things to do with it that are wrong.
How do we make it work for us?
And when you start getting students into that mindset where it's actually helping them become educated and learn, especially about a topic that sometimes they may not be fully interested in or, have a desire to go into a career.
that's when I see, the true power being unlocked with AI.
Priten: Yeah.
when you think about that misuse component, we'll focus on that negative for a second.
what are your concerns?
Because we hear, you know, a lot of the public narrative is obviously about like cheating.
But I'm sure as a middle school student misuse of things like rulers and, right.
Like, it's not always just about cheating.
and so, yeah, I'd love to hear what the, the broad landscape of misuse looks like in your head.
Shon: I mean, it can go anywhere from, you know, they take your homework and they're typing it into AI and it's giving them the answer and it's correct, but you actually want to know their comprehension.
And I try to promote with the students.
It's not learning my exact material.
It's you learning how to learn.
That's the ultimate goal, science for me is just kind of like the conduit that gets it there.
just a means of delivery.
with AI or, or the internet, I'm sure if you ask teachers, you know, from, from years ago, they would see calculators as the same thing.
You know, how, how do you not know your times table and you know, all of these other equations.
And if you think about physics, you know, there's, there's a slew of formulas I look at AI as a resource.
but obviously in the wrong hands, you know, you tell the kids, Hey, we're gonna use AI and we're gonna look up, um, potential energy and kinetic energy.
The next thing you know, one of the kids is typing something, probably not so kind about another kid and including potential and kinetic energy, and they're like, look, look what it gave me.
And you know that now, now you've got feelings hurt and so you gotta take that with kid gloves I can see where students are gonna mess up.
they're students.
But that's where I see parents ourselves as teachers and educators, admin, it guiding them.
You know, they're, like I said, anything can be used, you know, improperly, writing papers and as fast as AI is evolving.
I mean, now we've got videos of people that.
Together that weren't even alive in the same decade or century.
Right.
it's, it's scary, but at the same time, that's just a tiny little bit of what the potential is.
Priten: Yeah.
when you think about incidents like, student using the AI bot too.
create a joke about a peer.
do you get opportunities to have conversations with the students, about it, or do you find yourself having to like quickly refocus the class, which,
you know, is a reality of being in a classroom with 30 or something students, who are now all hyper fixated on what this AI bot said about the student.
but do you get, do you get that opportunity to slow down and kind of like talk to them about like.
Oh, they're using the technology.
Um, in productive or personally?
Shon: Yeah.
Personally, absolutely.
Yeah.
I will, I will stop the class for, $5 of Mr. Holland's free advice.
Priten: Yeah.
Shon: And, and I, you know, and we walk through it.
Now, I may not call out that student directly.
I may not say, you know, student A is telling jokes about student B. No, I may say, Hey, listen, your assignment is x, y, z. I know that some of
you are not doing that, and we actually have, GoGuardian, which allows us to monitor screens and, you know, search history and all of that stuff.
So I can say, look, I'm not saying you did it, but someone around you may have.
I can run reports at any time, and I share 'em with you, your parents and the principal.
And I, I have done that, not necessarily on, any cyber bullying type of issue, but on cheating on, tests and quizzes I have, and I share it with all three, you know, the parents, the student, and the admin.
And I address it from, this is a point of learning.
You don't really need to do this.
What did you do improperly?
And I know AI is there, or the internet, but.
in my opinion, you have to stop the class at that point and kind of at least give a general lesson on what's going on.
and it also comes down to rapport with the student.
I have had students that are full of energy and they love the attention when they get in trouble.
Well, I may treat it.
Differently than that student that's a little bit shy, but her friend's in the classroom with her or this other kid is, you know, he doesn't like to talk a lot, but his buddy is there with him.
I may pull them aside after class, but if it's a kid that's a little bit more outgoing, you know, Hey, what, you know, what are you doing?
Blah, blah.
And-
Priten: Yeah.
Shon: -they get the lesson, they kind of get a little bit of an acknowledgement, so they kind of get that, uh, you know, that rush from being in front of everyone.
But it's a, yeah.
They welcome it, you know?
Yeah.
But that comes down to relationships.
Priten: Yeah.
when you think about the surveillance tools like GoGuardian, and you think about your rapport with students in terms of you know, like how you determine approaching the situation.
You know, there, there folks are concerned about, removing the, the human from the equation when it comes to especially discipline in our school systems.
Because it is missing the context like that, right?
So like if we just, if we just use GoGuardian to announce the whole class, who's like the next step to GoGuardian was that this GoGuardian approached the class about the student's misuse.
Um-
Shon: Yeah.
Priten: -we would have very different implications, for our classroom.
Um, so where do you see that line between, complete reliance on like human monitoring and, you know, discipline versus complete reliance on the AI monitoring discipline?
Shon: I mean, it's, it's definitely a balancing act.
I use GoGuardian or any of the monitoring tools.
we've had, you know, a couple here and there.
To me, it's usually during quizzes that I would have that up and actively watching, you know, their screens.
You know, if you're a teacher and you say you don't multitask, you're probably lying to someone.
but typically I would use the Go Guardian for something like, hey, this, this answer seems just a li this is not that child's writing style nor level.
And I've seen things written way above their level and I've think, you know, read things that are way below what the student should be writing
That's typically where, where I would bring it in.
I also know that there's filters that you can set up and so you can, I always try to run it from a what is allowed standpoint rather than blocking.
If I tried to block every gaming site, it is a constant cat and mouse.
Every new site that comes up, I'd have to add.
So I tell them, and I, I start this probably within the first few days of class.
I use GoGuardian.
When you're in my class, I allow these sites and then I add as the activities for that day or that week, you know, require.
So the number one request, can I get on YouTube?
Nope.
It's just, it's an, it's, it's just an instant no, and I tell 'em, not personal, but I have music playing in the background.
Yeah.
So I cannot work in complete silence.
And I don't expect you to, but it's also not going to be top 40 hits so loud that we can't hear each other.
And the first couple, you know, we get some rumblings or another teacher will say like, yeah, sure, I don't care.
And then they'll come back and they'll say, well, so-and-so lets us.
And I'm like, that's great.
I'm very happy that that is a privilege you have.
Um, but when, you know, when you start looking at GoGuardian.
The way it can instantly shut things down.
There are times where I do need YouTube accessible and I am going to turn them loose on the entire platform that's allowed by our district filter because
they may be looking for real life examples of, you know, science and, and maybe one of their influencers shot a video and if they can bring that in.
I, I definitely don't wanna squash that, that little bit of desire.
Priten: yeah, so like the, it sounds like there's a lot of, um, to use the science for titrating that you're doing between like, you know how much you are, um, allowing, not allowing how much disciplining, not disciplining.
and it, that takes a, that takes a lot of active, like energy on your part, right?
Like, I mean, you're.
There's so many things when you're up in front of a classroom, um, that you're already like, titrating, right?
Like it's your, the, the loudness of your voice, your eye on the students who, like using their cell phone when they're not supposed to, or like, is there
a vape pen in the, I mean, just like the number of things that you're responsible for keeping track of, feels like it's getting, uh, longer and longer.
how are you feeling?
Like what, what, like what, like, I don't know if that's too general of a question, but I'm generally curious as to like, what, like how are you doing?
Shon: I talked through COVID and where we did remote and we did hybrid and, you know, the same schedule every other day.
So you repeated it, you know, you'd go through and teach.
Three classes, but it would take five days to do it because of the staggering of an AM and PM schedule and stuff.
it's a lot.
But at the same time, I think the more responsibility you put on the student, the more that especially 7th, 8th grade, eighth graders are ready.
They wanna go to high school.
High schoolers, what do you want me to know?
Because I wanna go to college or I wanna be done with high school so I can move on to the the workforce.
I think 7th graders and then, you know, 8th graders early on, you give them the responsibility, and you kind of show them a little bit of trust.
Towards the end of the year, YouTube might be allowed for this student or this student, and I may have allowed it for a third student, but, they spent
40 minutes out of, their study center on YouTube, and now they're coming up and asking me questions about homework that they should have been working on.
Well, now you've got a consequence.
And it's kind of the more responsibility I can give them, the more I guess, uh, freedom they give me while I'm in the classroom.
Because if I can go over and talk to a student that's struggling with the concept and.
They're still engaged across the room.
Everybody wins.
But if you don't wanna be on task, we're all going to go through this worksheet one number at a time.
You do that and I do, I will drag it out just for that moment, and you can, the eyes will roll.
Bodies will, you know, fall onto the desk.
Oh, are we done yet?
But you do that for 5, 10 minutes.
All right.
Do you like that or can we do what we should be doing?
Oh, I'm so sorry.
please, please don't ever do that again.
I'm like, all right, let's go.
I personally, I'm all right, but I can see the constant distraction.
I hear it in the teacher's lounge, and kids know what pushes buttons and kids know what buttons to push that will get certain teachers to break.
And they use that.
I mean, that's part of being, you know, an adolescent.
but I think if you kind of that rapport and give them some consequences where they don't resent you, that's the part where.
You kind of take the weight off your own shoulders, if that makes sense.
Priten: Yeah.
you know, the other other thing that as I'm listening to you talk, that I'm thinking about is like, broad picture folks will talk about like, how everybody classroom is different and we need to not make policies that are, um, across the board.
And, The folks who know that know that, and the folks who don't listen, don't listen to that.
but there's so much uniqueness to how like, and nuance to how you're approaching the situations.
but it also takes a, I mean, it takes a lot of skill and effort and sometimes it is nice to have like, be like, okay, this is what we're gonna do across the school to deal with this problem.
what would you suggest to a building dealing with like, you know, figuring that, uh, balance out?
Shon: When it comes to cell phones,
Priten: Yeah.
Shon: Personally, I understand I have four boys.
I understand wanting to have contact with them in an emergency at the same time as, as a personal witness to the amount of distractions that it can cause.
And some parents will call during class.
that is definitely an issue because let's say there was some sort of of emergency where, you don't ever wanna be in a, a shelter in place or a
hold where there's danger in the building, but if your room is dark, and that cell phone goes off, now you've got a, you know, another issue.
And I wouldn't want that type of responsibility.
it'd be devastating.
but I, I do think having them in the building as far as.
If, if you were to say no cell phones, I'm just gonna say like on school property, just for a blanket statement, that seems ridiculous.
There are not payphones.
Like there were, uh, I'll say when we were growing up, the number of students that need to call for a ride or need to be reached, you know, like, Hey, so-and-so's gonna pick you up, or you're gonna go home with.
Johnny because they live two doors down.
that's an obvious need.
I think keeping them in the locker is a totally fine solution.
but the next discussion comes to what do you do when they're not in the locker?
And th that's the part that gets really, I mean, these, you know, these devices can cost 500, 1000, 1500 dollars.
I don't know about other people's financial situations, but I can't afford to be throwing, you know, 1000 dollar phones to, to my children and having them, you know, accidentally break 'em or, or what have you.
That just, To me, that's the liability piece that the parents wanna put on the district.
The district will turn around and put it on the teacher.
Well, you took this kid's phone, they took it off your desk, it fell, and the screen broke.
Yeah.
I mean, it hasn't happened to me, but personally I'd be like, okay, like the kid dropped his phone.
Yeah.
Or you know, what if I had it on my desk and a student knocked it off?
And it crack the screen or broke it or whatever.
Like now you're in a, a completely different, uh, scenario.
But as far as general policies, I do, I think.
Parents have to somehow sign a waiver or a release.
My child's gonna bring this to school, it stays in the locker.
And that's the end of it really.
I mean, there's gotta come a point where responsibility can't just constantly fall on the teachers.
I think that is, a scapegoat that just constantly gets abused.
Priten: Yeah.
I. I have one more question for you if you have the time.
I know we're at the end of the hour.
I guess like part of it is, um, you know, like, again, arm chair discussions about this sometimes talk about like, oh, instead of taking the phone away from the students, we need to teach them how to use it in a healthy way.
as a middle school teacher.
Like what, what is the reality of that?
Like,
Shon: so I'm kind of like a science geek as an educator and a parent, a cell phone that can do what the typical iPhone can do isn't healthy for a 6th, 7th, or 8th grader.
Hands down, hands down the, the, we can get into dopamine.
We can get into pseudo ADD type of symptoms, with, with gaming.
We can talk about blue light and circadian rhythm disruptions.
the research that's coming out now is irrefutable in my opinion, that they need to make.
I believe they even have them out now.
Dump phones, you know, make it the old fashioned flip phone, you know, the Razor XR or whatever they were from Motorola, and that's what I had in middle school.
Yeah, exactly.
You can call, you might get a mean game of calling on it or something, but yeah, you, you know, there's no Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok, You don't even need a camera.
and a lot of districts now are going with one-to-one devices anyway as far as Chromebooks.
Priten: Right.
Shon: So that's, that's the part where, oh, well I like to use it for the calculator.
No, we have devices for you.
Priten: Yeah.
are parents, do you think parents be receptive to this?
You mentioned like parents, like claiming that they need to reach their child at any given hour, um, and there being some validity to that.
Um, but in general, like if, the research is conclusive right about, and, but like the, the reality is parents are not listening to that.
Children are pushing back against enough, like that's not like folks are not listening to the research in terms of general use of children and like, you know, smartphones and so.
providing someone that's, that space within the classroom settings to me feels like a, like a, a need of the hour for just even navigating that crisis.
how do you get parents on board for that?
Shon: It's probably gonna sound old school, but you're the parent you're, you're looking at a long-term success for your child, not temporary.
And, you could pull one of any one of my four boys in, and I'm sorry, but when I make a rule, you're allowed to be upset.
you can actually not like me for a few moments.
I probably made the rule that went completely against all of your fun.
Probably destroyed your entire living, ability to enjoy anything in the world.
Yeah.
For about three minutes.
And then everything winds down.
But I, I do think part of the problem is you don't wanna be that one parent because your, your child's 10 friends all have the new iPhone, and they're allowed to use it as much as they want.
And as soon as you turn around and say you're limited to X amount of hours, uh, per week or day or however you can set up the screen time and whatnot.
Then they call out against you.
And you kind, well, you know, this other kid is a pretty good kid and they aren't restricted, you know this much.
you almost need to get parents to sit with like-minded parents and say, here's what we're gonna do.
I listened to another podcast It's, it's three guys that, that talk about health and fitness and everything.
And he started getting a landline and now all of his children's friends, he's like, we already talked about it as a group.
So even though his boy is friends with these other two boys, he went to the parents before they even addressed it and said, hey, what do you guys think about us getting landlines?
Because I'm not giving them cell phones.
And the other parents were like, taken back.
They were like, oh my gosh, that's a great idea.
So they got landlines and then the other family down the street, they got a land, and now they all talk on the phone, but they're having real conversations using words and voices, not crazy misspelled words in a text message.
And they've noticed, uh, a change in their overall, wellbeing, I would say.
Priten: Right.
Shon: Even just communication skills.
Priten: it does seem that the answer to a lot of this is.
Like, let's, let's find ways to make spaces that do not use the technology, right?
Like whether it be inside the classroom or whether it be intentional, um, actions by the parents, um, or even helping students carve out that, that time for themselves.
because then it allows you to use it in the, because you talked about productive use of this technology, right?
It's like you're clearly not someone who's like, oh, like let's, you know, move away-
Shon: I love tech.
Priten: -from all tech and any tech.
Tech.
Yeah, exactly.
Shon: Yeah.
I mean, you look at the different types of students.
And it allows me now to differentiate, translate.
I taught a class last year where I had five different languages and they were all beginners.
Yeah.
I was able to give them like instruction basically I'll in unison.
Because as I was typing it, I made a sheet in Google that would translate it for me into their languages and they just looked at their columns or their rows.
And they, like, you could hear them all in different sections, like talking in their, their home language about what we were learning.
Yeah.
And I mean, so technology's fantastic.
AI is, is miraculous.
We just have to know the time and place and we have to know when to walk away.
Sometimes you just need, human brain power to go through something.
Priten: Yeah, that's, that's a perfect note to end on.
So thank you so much for everything today.
Daver, Shon Holland.
His practical wisdom about teaching middle schoolers, giving them responsibility, building rapport, knowing which students can handle attention and which need a quieter conversation reflects years of experience in the classroom.
But what struck me most was his willingness to name what the research increasingly confirms.
Smartphones aren't healthy for sixth, seventh, and eighth graders.
As Shon reminded us, AI is miraculous.
Technology is fantastic, but we have to know the time and the place, and we have to know when to walk away.
After all, sometimes you might just need human brain power
for more on when to embrace fantastic technology and when to walk away, remember to pre-order my book, ethical Ed Tech, how Educators can Lead on AI and Digital Safety in K 12,
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