Priten: Welcome to Margin of Thought, where we make space for the questions that matter.
I'm your host, Priten, and together we'll explore questions that help us preserve what matters while navigating what's coming.
Today I'm joined by Brian Tash, a teacher with nearly 30 years of experience who's witnessed a complete transformation of education technology.
From Scantrons to Google Classroom to AI, Brian brings a big picture perspective.
He's seen enough technological shifts to know that each one promised to revolutionize education, and each one came with trade-offs.
He advocates for using AI tools in the classroom, but not without careful consideration of what we might lose in the process.
Student engagement, attention spans, essential skills like deep reading and writing, and even empathy.
Let's dive in.
Brian: um, my name's Brian Tash.
I've been teaching, this is going into year 30.
I have experience in grades kinder through eighth.
I've worked at the district office as a Tech TOSA, technology integration specialist.
done a lot of PDs through our school.
taught fourth grade the last eight years.
now I'm moving down to third grade, experience with all different types of kids working actually this summer with autistic program during our summer school and then really diving into AI and technology.
The last I'd say year and a half, two years, exploring different platforms, seeing what works, what doesn't.
working for some companies on the side, just kind of getting my feet wet.
Priten: so before we talk about your experience, um, I like to just ask folks.
What their earliest memory of an ed tech tool as a student was.
so whether it be, a grade school, college, um, whatever your first experience that you can remember explicitly is.
Brian: Technology.
Oh boy.
I'd probably say, um, Scantrons in college, like, you know, the old school Scantrons with that, they would run through and, and then you'd kind of get a little mark on 'em and then you'd know how you did.
and then just the early.
Integration with emailing professors and that sort of thing.
Um, most of my classes at UCLA, in late nineties, a little bit was on the computer, but most of it was all, in books and paper.
Priten: the interesting, so tell me, when that transition first happened, Did you have an emotional response to that of any sort?
Like, were you excited because you were getting feedback sooner?
Were you anno?
Like, what was the, was it annoying because you had to like fill it out perfectly and the, if the bubble
wasn't like,
Brian: I think the switch, and I know still some teachers still use it, which is crazy.
but I think it's that immediate feedback piece.
the ability to provide, that instantaneous feedback that they need, before they get too far, especially with essay writing.
a little easier with multiple choice, but I still feel like, even with like Google form types of tests, that's kind of a scantron.
It's just taking it to another step.
Priten: okay.
So let's, let's talk a little bit about, your first memory of using it as a teacher.
So what was the first EdTech tool that you were excited to embrace or maybe even forced to embrace, in your classroom?
Brian: I mean, things really picked up with just Google Classroom was kind of the, the beginnings 10, 15 years ago, I'd say.
our district.
Really was a huge Google Classroom school district.
So this was pre COVID and pre canvas and all that.
So everything was Google Classroom, learning how to use it, um, streamlined, how to make courses, that sort of thing.
for me it was a learning curve, but I'm a quick learner when it comes to technology, so.
it was definitely easier, than some other people.
I think the kids at first had to figure it out, but they were pretty advanced.
That group coming up.
Um, this was at middle school, so it helped them to simplify things, having courses, different cards for different courses and things like that.
Um, being able to check their grades more instantly and know.
That all their assignments were there and that they can check them when they needed to, um, was also helpful.
Priten: Yeah.
And what about parents?
did they generally respond in a certain way?
Brian: Yeah.
I think having that information at their fingertips help alleviate a lot of issues down the line when it gets close to progress report and report card time.
our report card management system is Q so they're always able to see.
What their grades are all the way, from kinder up through high school.
They have the same username, the same password, so the parents and the students always know that's the go-to spot to check your grades, and where it's most accurate.
Priten: I mean, it just sounds like a streamlined communication between both you and the students and, like the classroom and the parent.
are there any ed tech, tools that were system level, so like school level, like Google Classroom, that your school has or does currently use, that you or the students or the parents weren't so fond of?
Brian: Definitely canvas.
Canvas at the elementary level, I think is too advanced.
Um, has too many options, too many different areas for them to go.
Um, so our districts kind of, they're gung-ho with canvas, in middle school and high school, fourth and fifth grade, and third, they usually let us pick and choose how we wanna, push out assignments.
For me, everything's in Google, so it's just a natural.
Streamlined for me to push out that way.
And now almost all the AI tools sync really nicely with the Google Suite.
So that's the route I've kind of gone.
I like different areas of canvas, but, it, for me, it was just too over complicated.
Too many different things.
Priten: Yeah.
Do you know if the push, in the middle school to high school is just to prepare them for like the systems they'll use most likely in college, or is there.
Brian: A lot of
it came after COVID.
So I was Tech TOSA immediately straight after COVID.
So that's when the district spent lots of money on Canvas.
Uh, and I excel on, um, reflex, all those programs.
so that there was that.
Tool that was, the whole district was kind of synced up on, um, and everyone, you know, all the grades knew about it.
canvas, I think I, I don't know if it was that colleges are using, I think it was just the main goal was find something that is the same
in middle school and high school at a bare minimum so that parents and students and, and teachers could, uh, all be on the same page.
Priten: Right.
and then you mentioned, the pandemic.
So I'm curious, pre pandemic, what did, device and broadband access look like in your district?
Um, whatever insight you have on that.
Um, versus has it changed at all since?
Brian: Oh yeah.
so before, I'd say there was lots of sharing of Chromebooks.
We were not one to one.
the wifis was not great, so it would crash a lot.
We had computer labs, three labs on almost all the campuses I was in.
So everything was desktop and teaching the kids about different skills in each grade level, and that's gone completely out the window with COVID, I think the overall alliance of technology is there.
It's nice to have that one-on-one device, but it's, it's finding that right balance.
Priten: Perfect.
Okay.
Tell me a little bit about what, what role the device plays in your classroom.
what typical day in your class, how often are they using their Chromebook?
Is it largely at home?
Just, paint a picture for me of that.
Brian: Yeah, I mean the initial push straight out of COVID was.
Almost all day they were on it.
just to eliminate that one-to-one where they were, had to be in their personal space.
So it kept everyone separate in their bubbles and you can push out things and they can work on it if home if they weren't there or they're sick.
the last few years, I personally noticed that I had an over-reliance on it, so I've really been pushing it back.
getting them used to writing pencil and pen more on paper.
I know the stamina is definitely not there, so I'm noticing that in reading and writing, it's really hard for them to, that hand-eye coordination isn't there.
The ability, the complaining after writing a paragraph of their hands hurting.
Um, so I try to do a good mix, especially at the beginning of the year.
and then once we get.
Used to it and down with the process.
we bring in more, in terms of the computer usage for like typing up their essays, things like that.
with math, it's very limited.
Um, we have IXL, so they use that.
our math program doesn't really have a great platform for technology, so most of it's things we create on our own.
and it's usually worksheet based.
Um, all of our quizzes that we do are online and all of our reading, and almost everything we do is like in a Google form just to get them used to, the standardized testing.
Priten: what is their sentiment on it?
So when you say, okay, like they get your devices, are they excited because they're on the computer?
Are they dreading it because it's yet
Brian: Um,
there's a couple kids that are usually like, I don't wanna do it.
I want I'd rather write it.
And so I'm kind of at the point where.
I give them the option.
I mean, it is harder on me to try to read the writing, so I explain if you're gonna write it, it needs to be legible.
you're rolling the dice on spelling and grammar and all of that.
we're going to standards-based grading next year.
So, that's kind of the push to make it more equity based, So.
I think, it's definitely gonna, I'm gonna have to kind of reevaluate that and have to have everyone kind of at a point getting used to those word processing skills that they're gonna need.
Ability not just to type, but to understand what they're writing, to use the tools that are there, to use the AI that's there.
following that 80-20 rule, it's gonna get you 80.
We have that talk a lot.
It's gonna get you 80% of the way.
the other 20% is gonna be you creating it on and adding your own, elements to it.
Priten: Yeah.
So, and is that 80-20 rule about, teacher usage, or are you all using it
Brian: I think it's both.
I've been reading a lot and, for me, that's kind of my goal.
If I'm gonna run something, or run through Brisk or one of those programs where I'm gonna give them feedback immediately, I'll look at what the feedback is.
and usually it's pretty spot on.
And then just kind of tweak it, fine tune it, put it in my words.
They know that, we talk about, like, this is a way that I can get you feedback quicker so that you do not have to write all the way to the end while you're in there.
I can be looking at it at the same time, um, and, and following you step by step on your journey instead of way it used to be.
Priten: Right.
And so what is their response to knowing that there's feedback generated by AI?
I'm curious about, what, what do they say?
Do the, parents have, any
concerns?
Brian: It's mixed.
I did, um, actually did a study for, EnlightenAI.
I don't know if you've heard of them.
enlighten their tool is mainly about feedback, so I was working for them.
In their first group and they had me do a, uh, kind of a study.
For a 12 week session, we wrote up a whole blog and did a whole thing and kind of analyzed, and it was about like 90% in favor of it.
the key was they needed to understand why we were doing it this way, and that it wasn't just copy and paste.
It was, I'm looking at this, I'm getting an idea, and then I am taking that idea and adding my touch to it to help you along your way.
So once that background was there, I think it helped.
Priten: and they were able to appreciate the pace of feedback was faster.
and
Brian: Oh yeah,
for sure.
and their parents too, because then, with certain, like with Enlighten, you can run back a full report that tells all the different areas that they're struggling in.
so it's kind of a nice way to keep that data if I ever need it to say like, and especially going to standards based grading, I'm kind of processing, how I'm gonna justify are they meeting the standard or not?
So I think, tools like that MagicSchool, are good for that area.
Priten: uh, so you talked about how you're transparent with your students about, when you use AI, and what the purpose of it is.
what about student usage of AI?
both from like outside of the classroom.
I'd love to hear like
experiences, um, with students using it, but also like how do you, do you incorporate it within your classroom directly?
Brian: Yeah, mainly, I mean, I think they use ChatGPT here and there at home to like look up different things or if they're interested in topics in the class.
the main ones I use are Magic School.
I'll push it out through Magic Student.
I've used SchoolAI a lot.
I believe in both of those.
and then Brisk.
those are my three mains.
The one, diffit I'll use here and there.
I like how you can change and differentiate the text on a certain assignment.
but the ones that they personally use would be, SchoolAI for the spaces that I push out and create.
and they really like those, the chat character, chat bots,
Pick a character that we're studying in a book.
give them that character and allow them to interact with it.
it really helps to clarify what we're reading and, I think it balances the playing field a lot.
because, my SpEd kids, I can set the accessibility so that I show them how to use the text to speech.
I can use the, um headphones so that they can listen to it being read to them.
So all of those different tools are being built in to a lot of them, which is great.
and those that want to go farther, and my gate gates, they can push farther and ask more questions
Those higher level thinking questions and the way that the kind of focus that I'm on now is prompting, so a lot of prompt engineering.
Um, how best can I put out what I wanna put out?
So that's my next focus is.
How do I get what I want to get?
And we've talked about too, like if you're gonna use ChatGPT, if you're gonna use Raina in MagicSchool, it's all about prompting.
So we've kind of played with it a little and like I'll tell 'em like, go into MagicStudent and, and type in this and see what the image generator comes up with.
And then, okay, if you change the words here, if we add this, if we add that now, look what happens.
So there's a lot of, Trying it out and experimenting, especially in the lower grades.
'cause I want them to become comfortable with it and it's something they're gonna see and it's not this big, like negative thing.
it's here and they need to learn how to use it.
as they go on their journeys and eventually through high school and into college, they're gonna need it.
it's coming.
It's not like it's gonna stop.
Priten: talk to me a little bit about the pedagogical goals, free AI versus now, and then how you're balancing them, how they're changing for you.
Um, especially like, you know, you talked about the stamina with even writing, like an in-class essay that's changed.
Um, I'm curious other, other changes you've seen in students' academic abilities, you know, in a world where AI continues to be accessible to them.
Brian: Yeah, I think, um, one of the biggest is reading.
They don't read anymore.
They don't wanna read for pleasure.
I'll only read this if it's linked to an assignment, the reading just to read is gone, which was when I was growing up.
the attention span seems to be shorter so it's about finding that engagement piece and showing them that there's a lot of different book options.
There's a lot of different things.
You don't have to read a book.
You can read a magazine, a graphic novel look, listen to an audio book.
I mean, I tell 'em, even watching TV with the subtitles on for some of my low or ELL students
is it's reading.
I don't care what it is.
Podcasts, I mean, anything.
That will get them.
And we talk about how some of your auditory learners, and that's the way you're gonna take it in, so.
Priten: Other, other things you're noticing?
Um, I'm curious about any change, like attention spans are, I mean, a universal thing.
We hear
about, um, reading, writing, like both.
especially when it comes to like physical book and writing with a pen or pencil.
what about in terms of their like, buy in for learning certain topics, you know, so one of the pushback, one of the things we hear a lot at the higher grade levels is, students are pushing back again.
So why do I still have to learn this?
Because I have AI in my pocket and they can do so do you get any of that at that grade level?
Brian: Um, no.
Usually what we'll get in lower grade and upper grade is.
is this being graded?
it's that question, like, I'm like, what, what do I get for this?
what, what's the end result?
Like, why do I have to do this?
So the pushback is definitely more, I think a lot of post COVID, um, parenting, just kind of the schools are gonna handle it.
And like off the grid, I don't hear from a lot of the parents.
They're either too busy working multiple jobs or just like, it's in your hands.
I trust you.
Go.
but it's definitely, I, I would say the stamina across the board, being able to, just kind of the respect as a whole.
I don't really hear too much of, I could just look this up, some of the higher level ones.
like I said, I do show them like, Hey, let, let's go in there, let's see, type this in.
And we talk about like, Google's gonna try to trick you if you look at the top.
It's not gonna be a reliable source, are you in Wikipedia?
Like, let's go.
And that's why I like MagicSchool now.
we'll start having, it has citations so we can talk, go in and say, oh look, this is where they're getting this from.
Priten: Yeah.
I'm curious more about like your personal philosophy on this.
you know, there's some of these things that maybe it's just a matter of adapting with time, and not realizing which things are relevant and not relevant.
and some things might be concerning.
I'm wondering what things fall into those two buckets for you?
Brian: Like in the immediate or like coming.
Priten: Both.
I think, I mean, things you've definitely, like, things you've seen already that might be concerning.
or, things you're, you're starting to notice or patterns you're worried about, um, forming.
Um, both, you know, students
independently or in your
Brian: I'd say a big concern is the lack of empathy.
uh, a lot of kids have a hard time sharing and understanding, like that listening skill is gone.
Pushing through and doing hard things, I think is a huge, something that's just stopping them.
I don't know what it is, but there isn't a lot of like, I know I can try this if I keep doing it.
Like the growth mindset isn't there.
I also worry in the next few years there are not a lot of teachers going into the profession, so class sizes might go up.
The amount of standards and things being forced down throats to get things done, and it's all about testing, testing, testing.
I think that's really hurting things.
the days of school being fun, especially even in the lower grades where those are, your core memories are kind of going away.
So I try to keep that there as much as I can.
I wanna make it fun, but yet we still are learning.
Priten: tell me a little bit about the standards based, grading transition.
Um, are you excited for that?
How does that, jive with pedagogy?
as you think about
it in the age of tech?
Brian: every grade K through two does it, so third grade is getting it this year, um, in the whole district, and then it'll go to fourth and the year after.
Um, so we're really looking at, um, we redid the report cards.
We are redoing the benchmarks, um, kind of rewriting all of the curriculum to map it out so that it matches the standards.
thinking about how we can be clear to the parents in terms of this is the new grading system.
it's more equitable for sure, gets rid of the bias.
There's no.
There's a lot less, in between.
There's a lot less, you either you've got it or you don't.
Um, and it's particular categories.
So, I know the district has read it and looked in studies and this is the path that, uh, they want to
Priten: Right.
Brian: I'm curious to see how it
Priten: Yeah.
So you mentioned using a lot of different AI tools, um, because having tried a lot of different AI tools, how much of this is, personal interest driven?
How much of this is like that your school is providing these tools or there's committees?
I'm just kind of curious, where those tools come, like,
Brian: Yeah.
I mean, a lot of it was me searching out, um, being on Twitter and X now being, um, like I said, like stepping up, joining these ambassador programs that a lot of the,
Big companies have, where they kind of bring in teachers, let you see the tools ahead of time, some of the new things, new features, and then they give you some swag.
They, they're there to help you out along the way, and then they want us to go back and present it to our staffs.
so really, I mean, it started probably post.
When I was Tech TOSA so right after COVID learning about all these things started to drop and then I just kind of got into 'em.
Learned about brisk um, MagicSchool enlightened started working for them as their kind of, um, social marketing type of thing, kind of posting, going on different Facebook pages really.
I mean, it's a lot of just looking in social media, seeing what's new and then trying it out.
and then just kind of finding what works with what is my goal.
And then thinking about what I can bring back to my staff and to the district,
Priten: you're clearly thinking about engagement as one of the metrics for evaluating ed tech tools.
what other metrics do you think, you're either subconsciously or consciously evaluating when you decide whether or
not a tool is?
Brian: I think it's mixed.
I think I look at the student's response from it.
Um, and then I look on social media at how others are using it.
I'm also about safety bias.
and so I'll bounce it off other people is this and.
Is this a good site?
What do you think of this?
and going to conferences, going to Q conference in California, I know ITSE just happened.
Um, and just kind of reading about what the latest and newest things are.
And I mean, really it's just trying them, and that's one thing I'm not afraid.
It's try 'em out, see what they do.
I think there's an overabundance definitely of tools.
Now it's about just kind of streamlining it.
I eventually think most of them are gonna go away by the wayside or get bought out by other companies.
Um, 'cause they
Priten: Yeah.
Brian: compete.
There's
Priten: Right.
Yeah.
Brian: and they all kind of do the same thing.
Priten: I know you mentioned you're a Google Classroom user.
Did you get a chance to check out, uh, the new suite of tools they just released?
Brian: Yeah, I saw it.
It looks cool.
I don't think, unfortunately our district, 'cause we don't buy it, so I won't have all of, I don't think it's called Enterprise, right?
I don't think we're, like the highest level school district wise, since they only already bought Canvas.
But I mean, for me, especially at third grade and fourth, it does what it needs to do.
I know there's an AI element they're building into it, which will, I'm kind of interested in seeing how that all streamlines.
cause it'd be nice to have it all in one place.
Instead of having, now I'm gonna go to Brisk, now I'm gonna go
Priten: Right.
Brian: gonna go here.
So.
Priten: Um, and I'm curious, I know again, like you talked about the importance of having that one login, um, throughout many years and how that, facilitates
a lot of the convenience for parents, in the last few years, because there have been all these, like, you know, one tool does this, one tool does that,
have you
Brian: Yeah,
Priten: from parents or students, or is everyone largely following along?
What do you do to streamline that for folks?
Brian: that's another huge like piece.
So if I'm looking at it and the ability to have that quick sign on without having to log in.
So MagicSchool has that Brisk, they sign in with their Google account.
Enlighten.
Unfortunately our district won't allow, different, I don't really need to push out to the students.
So it's really like those ones SchoolAI works, it's just basically, making sure that.
It meets that safety requirement and then sending to our it, um, if I want approval on these.
And they've been pretty good about approving them.
They've only disavowed a couple of them, so,
Priten: Yeah.
Um, and do you know, I mean, was that, you don't have to like name names for which tool, but do you know, like what was the reasoning for not accepting certain tools?
Yeah,
Brian: They just kept saying it didn't meet, the level that they wanted it to be at.
I forget what level it's at.
that certification that they need to have.
So Brisk, I know is at that level in MagicSchool and SchoolAI are all certified at that level.
So I think it's hard to attain it in terms of safety and data of the students.
so I'm thinking that's the reasoning behind it.
Parent wise, they've been pretty receptive, um, and they like having that.
Easy access if they need to.
a a few of them are linked through Class Link, which is our, link where all of our links are.
Um, so it'd be nice if eventually it was pushed out, but it's hard to get them
Priten: Right.
Yeah.
I know we're a little bit past, um, our time, so I wanna make sure I respect, um, whatever cutoff you have.
but if there's anything else that you think would be useful, in terms of, you know, things you're thinking about or concerned about, um, or excited about when it comes to education technology, that would be great.
Brian: No, I just, yeah, I mean, I'm just excited to see where things go.
Um, and just the overall.
Use of AI and the overabundance of technology, I'm hoping that it slows down a little, that people think about things a little bit more, in terms of what they're there and not, and why they're using 'em.
Um, and the reasoning behind it and, and become more mindful of the fact that they need to be able to write and get that stamina back and, and to not give up doing those fun things that we all remembered from elementary school and middle school before was
Priten: Yeah.
Yeah, I think the at times technology feels like the end all be all of schooling right now.
Um, and it's nice to hear that there's, There's some pushback and trying to make sure we, uh, preserve, those human elements, but also the elements that build that stamina,
um, and provide that academic rigor.
Brian: Yeah.
And
that personal, the personal connection isn't there?
That's what they need.
Mm-hmm.
How to talk to each other, how to like problem solve, the
Priten: yeah.
Brian: collaboration collaboration communication, all those.
Priten: right, and then, so do you think that the push to standards based is gonna make that.
Easier to focus on or harder to focus on.
I'm just curious,
Brian: I think it's gonna be easier because now I'm gonna have, time, we're really focused on.
Hit those standards and if they've mastered 'em, then I know we can go to other places and, and for me, you can back plan knowing that these are the standards.
So a lot of the tools now, I'll be able to key in exactly what standard I need to focus in.
Give me this that goes with this and then differentiated to
this, this, and this.
So
Priten: Yeah.
I'd be curious to talk to you again in a year and see if, uh, I So you're, you're not gonna see standards based for another two.
Oh, no.
You're moving down to third grade, so you will see it this
year, right?
Yeah,
Brian: Third.
Yeah, so standards based this year.
So yeah, I'm curious to see
Priten: So, right.
Brian: I can tie AI to it.
Uhhuh.
Priten: Yeah.
Yeah.
Super exciting.
Brian: Okay.
Have a good one.
Talk soon.
Thank you.
Bye.
Priten: Brian emphasizes that technology is just one part of a much larger equation.
His concerns about attention, empathy, and essential skills challenge us to think beyond efficiency and ask what kind of learning environment we're actually creating.
Keep listening this season as we continue to explore the hard questions about technology teaching and what we want education to become.
And pre-order my book for more on how to approach ethical concerns in [email protected].
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If this episode gave you something to think about, subscribe, rate, and review us.
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Until next time, keep making space for the questions that matter.