Priten: Welcome to Margin of Thought, where we make space for the questions that matter.
I'm your host, Priten, and together we'll explore questions that help us preserve what matters while navigating what's coming.
My guest today is Nate odi.
Nate and I have been friends since we met almost a decade ago when we worked on a common project.
He now teaches ninth grade humanities statistics and calculus at a small religious K to 12 independent school.
The school has deliberately chosen a low tech approach.
What's striking is that the students and parents seem to want this.
We'll explore what happens when a school community decides that relationality matters more than connectivity.
Why friction in human relationships might be essential rather than something to eliminate.
And what it means to teach in a context where the default isn't optimization, but formation.
Nate and I are always asking some of the same big questions, so let's see what Nate is thinking about today.
Nate: I am very fortunate.
I guess to give you my context from my school, we are kind of like retro grade in that we have Chromebooks, but we don't use them that often.
Most of our instruction happens like just the old fashioned way.
Um, when I teach 9th grade humanities, we occasionally watch videos in class, but I don't think last year I had them use laptops at all.
I might have done a couple activities on Desmos in stats.
I don't think I had my Calc students using devices ever.
Um, I would sometimes use like a Desmos thing on, uh, of course they're using their graphic calculators, but I would sometimes like illustrate concepts with Desmos, and I would send them links to like Khan Academy or that kind of thing.
But, um, not much device use happening in the school.
We've banned phones for up to 10th grade, and actually we're talking about whether we'll ban them for the 11th and 12th graders as well.
So we have been very earnest about the kind of like device concerns that you're describing following a lot of like Jonathan Haidt basically, and the kind of-
Priten: Yeah.
Nate: Um, I mean he laid it out really clearly and, persuasively in, um, a couple of different books.
we've had sort of training of the parents.
We've had, um, people come in and talk to the parents about this and the parents are very onboard.
Um, so theoretically we're gonna double down on it next year.
This year was our first time experimenting with having the 9th and 10th graders turn in their phones at the beginning of the school day.
Yeah.
And of course, a lot of them weren't really doing it and we weren't really policing it, but, we know they still go to the bathroom and check their phones, but we, by and large, I think this must be a total anomaly.
When I'm teaching, I'm hardly ever confiscating a phone and I'm not catching the like, quick glance at the phone kind of.
Priten: Yeah.
Nate: Um, I think some of the kids really do just keep it in their locker or, um, you know, I just, you just don't see it.
and then even in the lunchroom and the gym, um, you hardly, I mean, I could be on lunch duty and walk in and like sometimes, you know, there's a few like usual suspects who've got their phone out and I confiscate.
but first of all, when I confiscate it, they totally know.
And like, I don't have like grief from them, they just like hand it to me, 'cause they know, it's like they know it's against the rules.
and they're like not gonna like, argue with me about it.
Second of all, the students seem to appreciate like.
Which Jonathan Haidt has talked about is the students actually know it's bad for them and they sort of want you to take it.
Yeah.
So if you ask them, like, should we get rid of your phones?
A bunch of them will say yes.
of course some of them won't.
And, uh, so anyway, I'd be sitting in the lunchroom, like on lunch duty and just thinking like, wow, this is pretty cool.
Like, um, most of these kids are just talking to each other right now that like, that's all that's happening.
Like, they're not on their basis, they're just talking like, normal humans.
It's amazing.
Oh.
Um, or being in like the gym, during middle school lunch, if I'm covering middle school lunch, they let the kids, like after 15 minutes they can go play basketball in the gym and it's like mayhem.
But it's exactly what 6th, and 7th, and 8th graders should be doing.
Which is like running around like banshees in the gym, like throwing gospel balls at each other, but they're not on their phones.
It's great.
Yeah.
like some of them don't have phones.
I think that must be pretty rare based on just what you just said and my general sense of things.
Yeah.
Uh, we have an it, um, director and, you know, there's obviously like, you know, they, they wanna make sure that we have good projector equipment and good stuff in the school, but we're not obsessed with one-to-one.
And we're definitely like pretty, um, it's not that we're opposed to using tech for teaching and assessment, it's just that, um, We expect that the classroom is not based around that in any substantial way.
Um, I found a few use cases where I did find it helpful to have kids on their devices, but, kind of for the reasons you're describing,
I've steered away from it just 'cause I know they're on their phones for six hours a day when they're not in the school building.
we have pretty regular conversations with our students about it.
I have conversations with my advisees, like, so I'm, I'm an advisor, which means I have like, um, eight 10th graders that I talk to once a week.
Yeah.
And like half the time my conversation with them is like, how are you doing getting to sleep?
And like the number one factor getting to sleep is like, did you put your phone away at 9 PM?
But a lot of them have like healthy, like their parents are like, they know that their, they, they, their phone doesn't live in their bedroom.
Right.
Like they, they turn it in at 9 PM or that kind of thing.
so people seem pretty clued in to the kind of concerns about the phone addiction.
Priten: I quickly would wanna learn a little bit more about the, the context of the students before they enter high school.
So are most of your students also doing middle school within your, like within the build?
Is it in the same building?
Is it?
Yeah.
Nate: Yeah.
It's a six, it's a 6-12.
Um, I think our incoming 9th grade class is going to be.
At least 80% people who were here in 8th grade.
Right.
We have some loss of people outgoing from 8th grade and then we admit some new students.
But, um, and then there is a little bit of, um, matriculation in 10th and occasionally 11th.
Um, I don't think we really ever let in somebody just for their 12th grade year.
Maybe we do it occasionally.
Yeah.
Um, but by and large, um, the pipeline is from 6th grade.
Or seventh.
Yeah.
Priten: Um, and then how many students are there per like, grade level?
Nate: About 40.
Okay.
Although they're trying to increase it slightly, but our building just is only so big.
And, you have more problems with everything the more you do everything.
But I think just Right, they are trying to scale slightly.
Priten: Yeah.
and the parent, buy-in Was that a cause or an effect of the school's approach?
I'm wondering if, like, does the school do a lot of, you did mention some parent outreach in terms of like helping them understand, policy decisions that you all are making.
that's a high level of buy-in, like the taking the phones away at night, like all that doesn't seem just school.
Nate: yeah, I think it's a lot of parents who are already pretty tuned in.
I mean, that's just the.
Great privilege of teaching where we do because our school is distinguished by its culture and that's what parents are paying for.
Like we are a college prep school.
We get kids into Ivys, you know, somewhat regularly, and it's very academically rigorous.
But um, parents are also.
Willing to drive a long way and pay tuition because they believe in the mission and the culture of the school.
So that means we've self-selected for parents who are really intentional.
so than just like a product, right?
Like, they don't just like drop their kid on our doorstep and say, get 'em into Harvard, and, complain if we, um, don't, yeah, they are, they're bo they're, they're here for the culture and so they really care about their kids and they're invested.
So of course we have like trouble with some parents, like anybody, but by and large, the parents are really supportive Supportive of their students and also supportive of us.
I think to answer your question, I think it's just the kind of people who would make sure their kids turn off their phones at 9 PM are the kind of people who send their kids to BTA.
Right.
Priten: Yeah, that makes sense.
Nate: And meanwhile, BTA is also focusing on that.
Priten: Right.
And there's some positive reinforcement there.
so I'm curious about now the students.
like You're right that like, I think a lot of students know, I mean, we all do, right?
Like how bad the technology is first, and yet there's like a hard time fully navigating that relationship.
what pushback are you getting from students, if any?
Nate: I haven't got really almost any pushback when I've confiscated a phone.
Um, my sense is that students, what they really hate is unfairness.
So, that goes for any rule.
It could be uniforms or food or, um, you know, cussing or whatever the rules are.
If they feel like the rules are being enforced arbitrarily or unfairly, they hate it.
but, if their sense is that anybody will get their phone taken away, um, because the rule actually is enforced cleanly and uniformly, they tend to go okay with it.
one thing we, we had to figure out a little bit this year is smart watches.
Um, so we, we had, I think the dean of students really handles this, but then the academic dean, who's also the IT director.
I got in a couple of like, arguments with students about their smartwatches, 'cause like they're going like this during class.
And I came over and I tried to take their watch away along with their phone and they're like, no, no, no.
I was just checking the time.
I'm like, no, you weren't.
You were.
Yeah.
Um, but like a couple of times they were like, they were not, they were students who like, aren't like shady.
And they were like, no, seriously.
I was really just checking the time.
And they like, started to cry.
And so I was just like, all right, I'm not gonna like die on this hill.
But, Uh, so I think we need to just strictly ban the smart watches.
I think we are going to do that this year.
There's no reason why they, they can get a dumb watch if they need to know what time it is, and every room has a clock in it.
But some of them don't have to read a clock, right?
Priten: Yeah.
Nate: Uh, like during a test, they're asking how much time they have left and there's a big analog clock right there.
uh, and then like earbuds.
So we are trying to, um, the policy is that if they have an earbud in, I'm also taking their phone.
Because like the earbuds connected to the phone.
Priten: Right.
Nate: Or like you're using your phone essentially.
Um, same with the smartwatch.
So I think we're gonna, I'm pushing for just like no smartwatches.
They don't need it.
Right?
There's something about like the cross country runners and the track runners might wanna like track their data with their, um, you know, like during practice, so they're gonna have to figure that out.
But, and then there's some also some tricky issues that I don't know if they've resolved about.
so this, the policy's supposed to be no phones in the building during the school day, but also even during, like if it's after school and a student's still in the building.
Priten: Yeah.
Nate: They're not supposed their phones out.
Yeah.
But then what if they're staying for a basketball game?
and then what if they're going to the basketball game, are we really gonna like, try to enforce it at the basketball game?
So if I, if I just want to go watch the basketball team, am I supposed to be like policing whether the students are on their phones?
'Cause of course they are.
Right.
Um, and like, what am I gonna like do that during the basketball game?
Like, just 'cause I happen to be there.
So yeah,
Priten: I'm curious about pushback against, the, like, I Are you hearing anything about like, oh, like.
And this might be more from parents, but in some districts the parents are like, why?
Why are you not using the technology when the technology is such a big part of the quote unquote real world?
it sounds like you have a lot of parent buy-in.
Um, but do you get that kind of pushback from parents or students?
Nate: If we do, I haven't heard it.
Um, But that might be self-selected by just the culture of the school.
Priten: Right.
Nate: I think, you know, when parents are like shopping schools and they discern what kind of school we are and what we're doing and what we're not doing, that they'll, they'll discern that we're not gonna focus on teaching them how to use any of the tools.
And so if that's what they really care about, they probably won't pick us.
That's an interesting question.
I mean, part of the school's stance on this has been, I mean, even before AI has been a sense that the tools that they need to use, they'll figure out on their own.
Like you didn't have to teach anybody to use most of like Microsoft Word or Google or anything.
Like, you just kind of figure it out.
Um, so we need not spend instructional time like training on the tech because first of all, we just don't use that much.
But second of all, the students will kind of figure it out when they need to, has been the sense and things change quickly, right.
So like we don't wanna invest in like teaching this thing that's gonna be obsolete soon.
but as for parent pushback, I'm not really hearing it.
I know what I would say if I got some, it's something like.
No one will be using this in five years anyway, so don't worry about it.
Yeah.
Priten: Yeah.
That, that's a, yeah.
Nice pithy way of the pressure back against that.
and respectful,
Nate: yeah.
Priten: Yeah.
the AI conversation.
I know when we initially spoke there was like, you and I spoke more mainly about like.
Some teacher usage of it, and then like the the student plagiarism angle.
I'm curious on both fronts, like has, has there been like, do you all as, educators, like use the technology in other ways outside of the classroom?
and what is the, like school's guidance or stance on that?
Nate: as far as the educators using it, there isn't like a lot of official guidance.
we're not discouraged from using it.
I think we've tried to have conversations about, having a kind of heuristic of, am I using this in a way that I wouldn't, which is the same heuristic I want the students to have in mind, which is like.
am I using it in a way where I wouldn't mind telling my students that I used it?
So if I'm using it to grade their papers and in such a way that I think they would feel like cheated somehow if they knew that I did that because I was representing it as if I had done something that I didn't.
Yeah.
so that's the kind of heuristic I have in mind.
And some of my colleagues don't use it at all.
A lot of them are like very old school.
but that's how I try to use it when I do.
So, like, if it's like, um, there's a, a video or, I need some quick practice exercises or, or just some comprehension questions to like, help the students track along, I'll ask Chat-GPT and sometimes it's helpful and sometimes it's not, but, um.
I wouldn't mind telling my, I don't always tell them that I like got this from Chat-GPT, but I wouldn't mind telling them, 'cause I don't think they would.
They'd be like, sure, that's fine.
Like, you know, like these are 10 questions that like, um, asked me about this eight minute video that we watched in class.
whereas I do think they would mind if they knew that I just put their essays into Chat-GPT and it gave me a, a score and some feedback for them.
Yeah.
Even though I know it would do a good job with that, maybe better than me.
Right.
but that would feel like it's breaking some kind of implicit contract with them that like they did the work to write it with their hand.
And so I'm doing work to read it.
Yeah.
especially because it's relational.
Like I only have 14 humanities, nine students and
we're in some kind of relationship here where I am trying to help them with specific things on their writing and the way that they formulate, um, what they're saying and articulate themselves.
So I'm the one reading it and it's my scrawled handwriting that they can't read.
trying to give them feedback.
I use it for tasks like that.
I'm tutoring a lot this summer and I found it ex, I found chat, GBT extremely helpful for rapidly generating grammar practice exercises.
I'm teaching grammar to like three or four students and, um, if it's like, oh, what's a dangling modifier and how do you fix it?
Like bam, you know, like 10 good exercises and it's even like, oh, this kid likes soccer, so let's make them about soccer.
Perfect.
or okay, now let's make it slightly more complicated.
'Cause let's mix them into a paragraph and they have to spot the errors and fix them.
It's fabulous for that 'cause it's so quick and so customized.
Um, so I don't know what I'd be doing if I had to like have a grammar workbook and like flip through and then I run outta problems for the kind that, or I can't find a problem.
That's the style I'm looking for.
it's, it's fabulous for that.
like if I was teaching grammar in the building, I would be using it all the time for that.
Priten: Right.
Nate: But I don't really like, a lot of my lesson plans for math are, um, out the box from, um, mostly from Math Medic.
I'm guessing you've heard of it.
It's a good resource.
Yeah.
But, um.
I'm rarely, I'm, I'm never using it for grading and I don't think most teachers are, I'm using it for a little bit of lesson planning or a little
bit of like dialoguing about, like, if I'm really stuck on a topic, I might ask it for some, like to help me like think about a better lesson plan.
I'm not using it for any emails.
Partly 'cause we've got even the, like Google, admin disabled, the like, like Gmail doesn't even suggest, like responses in our emails.
Priten: Right.
Nate: Which I like.
I think you just turned off the whole AI suite.
But also like.
In my case, the emails I'm sending, I know I could draft them with Chat-GPT, but it feels to me like it would take about as much time to get it to like, understand what I want and like write it as it would take me to just write it.
Priten: Yeah.
Nate: So I don't feel like it's, it's not a painful part of my life to write emails, um, that need to be automated.
So,
Priten: Yeah, I've been, uh, drawing on the golden rule when I talk to teachers about like how to both talk about the students but also approach themselves like.
You ought to think about being on the other side of any, any AI usage, right?
Nate: Mm-hmm.
Priten: So like, I don't wanna read AI emails.
Like I'm not in which, like when I see an email or anything that's like AI written and a message to me, I'm just like immediately turned off.
Like, I'm just like, I don't particularly feel in message in this relationship anymore, even if it's like fruitful for me in other ways because I no longer feel like you're invested in it.
Nate: Hmm.
Priten: So yeah, I figure that's, a good little gut check is like, if I were the student, would I want my paper graded?
Like, probably not.
Right?
So, uh, it makes sense that, you don't use it that way.
the use of AI by students outside of the classroom, what does that look like?
like have you all changed formative assessments at all since we last spoke?
Nate: Good question.
I don't know what other teachers are doing.
In the ninth grade humanities class, we do almost all of the writing in class for assessments in their reflection diaries.
So they write in their reflection diary almost every day.
And I read those, so I get a very good sense of their voice very quickly, and I really want them to just actually put their pen on the page.
I believe the 10th and 11th and 12th grade teachers are having them do writing assignments like on Google Docs and that kind of thing, and research papers.
I don't know what they're doing to put parameters around it.
The school's policy is you cannot use AI tools unless you're explicitly given permission.
I'm guessing most of the teachers are not giving permission for those kind of things.
I don't know.
I'm sure there's a certain amount of like, stuff cheating, you know, getting away with it, I would say at least, at least half of our students.
That might be high, but it's, it's a lot more than I would've, it's a weirdly high amount.
Like buy into, like you want to learn to articulate yourself.
You want to have your own voice.
You want to be able to communicate your own thoughts and therefore, like, like you're cheating yourself if you're cheating.
try to say it yourself.
Um, even if it's work, it might not be half, but it's, it's a good amount are like willing to like, do the work.
we've had some issues, like I've caught a couple of my students trying to cheat on different things.
Um, in my case, I'm sure you hear this a lot, it's like.
It's amazing that the student didn't think I would notice how much better the thing was they turned in than what they normally turn in.
Like I somehow would believe that they wrote this.
I'm like kind of insulted.
I'm like, how dumb do you think,
at least, at least prompt it to sound dumber than this, uh, or to make some, like give it some of your work.
Right.
Priten: Right.
Nate: And tell it to imitate you.
Come on.
Like, make this, make this more convincing.
Please.
trick me, you know,
Priten: Right.
Make this more challenging.
Nate: Yeah.
Like it's just kind of insulting.
I'm trying to think what else to say about that.
As far as math, I think both calculus and stats, 80% of the grade is in class assessments that they're doing with a pencil in front of me.
Priten: Yeah.
Nate: Um, and I, I have taken to, given like I wasn't doing any completion grades for homework 'cause I know you can just take a picture and ask Chat-GPT.
But by and large the students kind of figured out, especially at the AP level that like first of all, it's not that much of your grade anyway, and the grade really is the test.
And so you really are just kind of wasting your time and being dumb if you're using Chat-GPT to get the answers instead of doing it.
'Cause it, it's only marginally increasing your grade compared to if you just tell me you didn't do it and
Priten: Right.
Nate: you're gonna need to learn how to do it for the test.
So.
Occasionally I tell them like, by all means, use it to check your answers.
Um, yeah.
And like in many cases it will tutor you better than I will.
it'll give you really clear instructions.
So, it just doesn't come up that often.
Priten: Yeah.
Nate: But that's kind of just how the class is structured.
I'm not sure what else my colleagues are doing or the trouble they're having with it at our faculty meetings.
I've tried to, um, I'm like the guy who's always talking about it.
Uh, so people always send me articles and stuff.
But I'm trying to, um, especially for, I think the older people.
I just want them to, I want all of our colleagues to understand what it can do so that it's in the back of their mind somewhere, anytime they're assigning something.
right, put this into Gemini and just see what it gives you.
So, you know, like you should, you should just have some awareness of how good these tools are, so that you're not caught flatfooted, like shocked that.
I think especially just the ones that are like 50, 60, 70, 80, if they haven't tried it, they wouldn't believe.
Priten: Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It feels magical if you haven't like, um, actually done it yourself.
I'm curious about the faith angle, Do you think, that plays a role and has it played a role in how you explicitly talk about it?
because obviously that influence the culture of the school.
and that can dramatically change.
I mean, the culture of the school in general can dramatically change how students approach it.
Um, and that, that's true across the country.
but I, I am curious how those conversations intersect with conversations about faith.
Nate: in particular with the, I guess I would say the angles of faith that are the most, um, salient one would be integrity is a big deal.
Um, I think that's.
I mean, there are plenty of secular schools that go hard on integrity too.
So it's not like unique to Christianity.
But uh, it is also a Christian principle, right?
so trying to help the students understand what integrity is and why it matters and being honest and why it matters.
Priten: a lot of secular, just like a lot of secular schools would say it's important, but I feel like like robust character education or like virtue education is kind of fault.
Right?
Like then that's, that's what I'm, I'm curious about like, how much of this is like understood that integrity is important, um, because you all are a school that
like is faith-based, um, versus how much you are you all doing even like outside of the realm of technology that like reiterates the importance of integrity, right.
Because I feel like that part.
A school can put it on their mission page.
They can say it once a year.
Um, but like the active work that it takes to remind students or show examples or help them form, form like the, practice and techniques very different.
Nate: I mean ways, first of all, it comes up whenever we do actually like go, like we try to go after any plagiarism or cheating or that kind of thing, and we take it really seriously.
So there'll be a, um, they call it a disciplinary committee and there'll be like a meeting with the dean and some other students, and you could get suspended or expelled.
And that happens every year.
So, and this, you know, it's a small enough school, that word gets around.
So if, you know somebody got caught cheating and like they got called into the dean's office, it like scares you a little bit.
There's, uh, you know, the, the headmaster talks to all the students before both the, um, midterms and the finals and reminds them why cheating is a bad idea.
we as a faculty try to be, like models of like, you know, we try not to be dishonest.
Um,
Priten: Right.
Nate: I feel like that's how I learned it the most.
Like my parents literally never lied to me.
Like they didn't tell me about Santa or something 'cause they just thought that'd be lying.
And so, um,
Priten: yeah.
Nate: I knew lying was like, I, I knew you shouldn't lie because my parents just didn't lie.
You know?
Priten: Yeah.
I'm curious about other faith-based reasoning as well.
Like, I remember in, in college, my like, professor had shared this, Article written by Simone Beauvoir, I believe that was about the role of practice, at school in like building the practice of like prayer.
and that one's like really stuck with me.
Even when like things don't fully, like I can't, you know, if I can't fully, I'm feeling demotivated from something or like not seeing the point.
Like, part of that was just like.
Those kinds of habit building activities help us build stronger habits for things that do matter, like prayer.
It definitely like, stuck out to me.
and explicitly like uses schooling as an, as an example of that, like.
Even if we can't understand why we still ought to sit and learn Latin.
Like that kind of rigorous study, like that kind of, right.
Like all that kind of does, can be reapplied in other contexts that feel meaningful to us.
but I'm curious like when you all are like in, when you're, you know, you're, you're, the Bible is part of your ninth grade humanities class, like, You don't wanna spark notes to the Bible, right?
Like, and I'm assuming that, that, like, is there a buy-in from students on that?
Like, because that feels distinctly different than not Spark noting I don't know, great expectations or something.
Nate: Yeah.
Although I will, I will say that in ninth grade humanities, it's not Bible study in the sense that, first of all, we are, we don't, yeah.
We don't require that students are Christian.
Priten: Right.
Nate: Most are, and we're very clear that we're Christian.
Um, and we only hire Christians, If many of the families are not, so like every year, a couple of my ninth grade students are Chinese internationals and they've never seen a Bible before.
so we are trying to actually.
Teach the Bible as a kind of, like we're setting the ancient Jews in their historical context with the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Persians.
we're comparing a little bit like other creation narratives from the ancient near east.
Um, and then we're also like setting Jesus in his historical context, like what's going on in the Roman Empire.
Who is Caesar?
who is, um, Herod the Great, who is, um, Herod Agrippa?
so we're trying to sort of, we're teaching the Bible a little more as a historical and literary document than as a kind of, here's how you pray and here's how you do faith.
Priten: Right?
Nate: we do, chapel every week as well, which is more like a church service, and that's where we are singing and there's a sermon,
in my class I'm actually trying to like bother, like a lot of the students are pastor's kids, and so, um, in 9th grade community.
So like, I'm actually trying to like, make it not like Sunday school for them.
I'm trying to like, right.
Um, when, when they gimme the, like, cliche Sunday school answers, I like poke them and like-
Priten: yeah.
Yeah.
Nate: You read the book of Joshua, which I'm not sure if you're familiar, but it's essentially a description of the Israelites, more or less exterminating other people groups.
Yeah.
In a kind of Holy War like celebration of Yahweh sent you to literally kill everyone, including women and children.
And I'm like.
I teach it very like critically, shall we say?
Priten: Yeah.
Yeah.
Nate: Which is not the way you can in Sunday school.
Um, so
Priten: Yeah.
Oh, that's really interesting.
If the narrative around, like reading in particular, obviously I was talking earlier about like I'm, I'm concerned about like how to get folks to appreciate the
Value of reading a text and a text.
that's longer than like, you know, a caption on your Instagram post.
and I was, I was curious if part of the motivation in that class is from faith, but it sounds like it's, it's actually fairly disconnected.
Um, and it is a very historical lens to it.
And so you're,
Nate: we do want students to be able to like sit and read a book, including the Bible or other spiritual literature.
And you can't grow spiritually unless you can pay attention to something for more than two minutes.
Or like sit.
Like if you can't pray for more than five minutes without checking the phone, then you won't grow spiritually.
Priten: Right.
Nate: So that's true.
I also feel like even secular people know that too.
So, but maybe we're just like more tuned into it because we, um, are interested in spiritual formation as well.
Priten: Yeah, that's, I think that's, that's like, is there more buy-in on the same things that we could all agree on when it's like from a place of faith?
There's things I think like that's felt differently than intellectual, like I know this is right for me, um, is very different than this is an act of faith for me.
Um.
I was curious if that's changing, like the approach of, or even just like how students are showing up in the classroom.
you also have them from 6th grade, which I think is, or it sounds like, uh, at least 80% of your students, which is another like three years of formative schooling that you all kind of get to influence, which I'm sure is helpful.
Um, do you notice a difference between your 9th grade students who are within the school system and, are new to the school system?
Nate: Definitely.
part of it is just they can write better and read more.
Yeah.
So they're, they're more actually trained.
generally they're better at math too than the ones who are incoming.
Especially if they're incoming from the public school system.
Um, there's a lot of like remediation we're doing with the kids that are coming from the public school system.
That'd probably be the main difference.
Priten: Like attention span, all that deal.
Nate: Yeah.
And more acculturation like they're used to, like you wear the uniform they're used to like, yeah.
You're not gonna be on your phone.
And also like, I think in a really good way, like we don't bully people.
Kids are nice.
So generally right, like
Priten: Right,
Nate: I mean, compared to how I was in 9th grade, it's wild.
I, it's like surreal sometimes when I compare where these kids to, like me in ninth grade.
Priten: Yeah.
Nate: Or 12th grade for that matter.
I was such a worse human than they are.
So,
Priten: yeah.
It's, it's nice to hear of a, That these things are working in some context.
and I'm sure there's a lot that can be learned and reapplied in other contexts.
Nate: One other thing I'll say on the kind of theological angle, and I'm actually probably gonna write a paper about this, theologically we're more focused maybe than I think everyone kind of knows this, but relationality is so key to what it is to be human.
and relationships are inherently frictiony.
whereas, um, technology is designed to eliminate friction.
So like talk, like if you wanna be in real relationship with real humans, it's awkward.
You're gonna have conflict, you're gonna misunderstand each other.
Uh, there's so many ways that there's friction, right?
that is what makes life meaningful is relationship and relationship is, really best done face to face, like with your actual face, um, right?
and so.
if like we have theological rooting and like, that's what it is to be a human.
And so it's maybe more obvious from that framework, why a phone, like what Jonathan Haidt, would call a phone based childhood is like a dehumanizing thing.
Priten: Right.
Right.
Nate: And it's also more obvious why, like if your parents are on their phones all the time, that's, damaging, right?
Because like, We as humans, like need connection and connection needs like faces.
Priten: Right?
Nate: So, um, topic for another time is, yeah, AI is going to, I would argue very soon, perfectly imitate consciousness.
Like, whether or not it's, it is conscious.
It's gonna seem conscious to us.
Um, and therefore, on what basis will we try to dissuade our students from forming emotional bonds with them?
Priten: Yeah.
Nate: Um, it's already like a, a problem.
Priten: Right.
Nate: I mean, I, I haven't dated a chat bot yet, but I know some people are doing it and it's just gonna get better and better.
Um, so.
That's like a wave that's coming that I don't think people are quite ready for.
Yeah.
Priten: And I mean, this concerns, right?
there was a case of a student, um, dying by suicide after, like they fell in love with like denarius, like a version of denarius that was on one of the character like AI sites.
and then like, for some reason it ended, and, the company got sued.
But yeah, it is, it's the emotional dependency on it is a whole nother angle that I just don't think, like, I think we're also hyper
fixated on the intellectual one right now that I think, it is gonna be a little bit, we're gonna get caught a little bit off guard.
Um, and there's memes about, like, this might be the next like, like relationship thing that like Gen Alpha like comes home with and
you're like navigating like what is right and what is wrong and like this is a good for humanity or bad for humanity and all those things.
But yeah, that it is, it's definitely on the horizon.
if not already here, but I very much appreciate the opportunity to talk to you as always.
Um,
Nate: Have a great day.
Priten: You too.
Take care.
Nate: Alright, cheers.
Bye.
That was Nate speaking from a different school context than some of our other guests.
The emphasis on face-to-face relationships and are preserving friction in human connection offers a different framework for thinking about technology and education.
Not everyone teaches in a context with this level of parent buy-in or institutional support for low tech approaches, but Nate's experience raises important questions About what we're optimizing for and what we might be losing in the process.
Stay with us as we continue the season exploring the intersections of technology, ethics and education.
For some case studies that look at these tensions in more detail, pre-order my book, ethical Ed [email protected]..
Priten: Thanks for listening to Margin of Thought.
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Until next time, keep making space for the questions that matter.